indiaenergy

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:43 am

Hi guys
I have an old WW Greener that i need some help identifying and finding out sme info about it.
Sorry I dont know how to attach photos
It has stampings on it as follows
on barrels : 729',BNP with crown above, 12 in triangle, 2 3/4, 3 1/4, tons square inch ,triangle with what looks like 12c, the barrels also have the word sleeved stamped on both.
The rifle has : scroll engravery WW Greener, bnp , elephant, England stamp with crown stamps and others i cant identify, serial 33934
once again i appoligise but dont know how to upload pics but can email them.
I just want to know if it would be safe to fire modern day ammo including buckshot, and any other relevant info like when it was made etc
thankyou
George

Post subject: Re: ww greener id help

George
If no on answers your question, contact the makers U.S. representative
W.W. Greener
Kirk Merrington
207 Sierra Road
Kerryville,TX 78028
Tel: 830 367 2937
or the maker at
W.W. Greener
Poachers Pocket,Shoppers Hill,Brinkworth
Chippenham, Witshire SN 15 SAW, U.K.
www.sales@wwgreener.com

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:11 am

George,
The address Ned gave you is the admin. centre of what's left of the once great Greener enterprise of Birmingham.
Graham Greener is a helpful and obliging chap and has the old company records; from the serial number he'll be able to tell you when the gun was made, what the quality grade was, what the original dimensions were, and how much it cost. They probability is he will also have the name of the original purchaser. He makes a small charge for blowing the dust off the old books and sharpening up the quill pen but it isn't much.
You refer to the gun as a rifle, but from the rest of your information it sounds very much like a shotgun and I'm taking it as one. The term 'sleeved' means that the original barrels have been replaced, and the other Proof markings indicate that this was done in Birmingham within the modern era, certainly post WWII. I doubt Graham will have a handle on who did the job, there were (and are) lots of people who did such things.
On the face of it she should be perfectly safe to shoot with modern CIP 70 mm loads. Greeners guns were always soundly designed, very strongly made and well put together; however you must take the old girl to a competent gunsmith who can give a professional assessment. He can measure the bores against what they were at Proof, check for dinks and dents that amateurs miss, and examine all the other relevant bits on the gun.
If he does give you the green light ... have a lot of fun!
Eug
PS If you email some good clear pics to me at eugeneandjdith@googlemail.com I'll paste them up for you. Sharpness of image is a must in these cases, some very significant info can be gained from some very wee markings!

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:24 pm

your Serial No would date the gun to 1891/1892 but I would follow Eugene's advice and contact Greeners' for the full sp.

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:54 pm

thanks for your help
CAN someone please send me a valid email address so i can send you the photos to place here on my behalf I have tried to send them to eugene but they keep bouncing back saying no valid email

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:43 am

Bugger, bugger,
They keep bouncing back because I've got a typo in the email address. It should read eugeneandjudith@googlemail.com.
Eug

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:11 am

George has sent me some pics which I've posted to my Flickr account. Here they be...
His covering e-mail read ..
Well what to say about the gun shop guys advice? Twit. George the marks you see on the barrel flats and the action body are the Birmingham Proof marks. BNP = Birmingham Nitro Proof. The .729' figure indicates the internal bore dimension in inches at the time of Proof.
The 'competent gunsmith' needs to mike up the bores and compare them to the original figure; if they are the same or near enough you are over one hurdle. If on his visual examination of the rest of the action he sees no problem, you are in the home straight and good to go.
In general the gun looks to be in OK condition; not cosmetically great, but basically sound. I suspect the gun suffered a certain amount of neglect after it was sleeved; the new barrels appear to show corrosion pits and a not very wonderful blacking job. Where the barrels join the standing breech (the sticky up part) the joint looks very tight, just as it should be. When you push the top lever across you'll see another Greener innovation, much copied since, called the Greener crossbolt. This added extra strength and security to what was an already strong action. The side safety is another Greener invention (well maybe development would be more accurate), I like it and find it very convenient, but some folk who have only ever used tang safeties find it a bit odd. The fore end looks to be a Deeley latch type; often WWG used the Deeley and Edge snap type.
The woodwork is pretty plain without any figure. 16 Guineas at that time was a handsome amount of money. The gun making artisans in Birmingham earned very good wages, but for an average working stiff or agricultural labourer that would represent about 4 months salary, possibly more.
The Greener 'Facile Princeps' action was designed by Grahams famous ancestor as an improvement over the standard box lock action of the day, and in some ways it is, but it's not a cheap option and hasn't been used since. Here'a description from WWGs 'The Gun and it's Development'.
http://rbsiii.com/Guns/Facile_Princeps.pdf
All in all if I could get it for 200 quid I'd bite your hand off, it'd make a great project gun.
So find a proper gunsmith and get the full Monty from him.
Regards
Eug

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:08 pm

Mr. Molloy:
Could you possibly clear something up for me.
The Greener as presented in the pictures is said to be 'sleeved.' Is this 'sleeved' an internal job or have the barrels been cut off in front of the block and new ones attached, and restruck (I would think) at that point? I understand many London shops can do this and make it almost undistinguishable to the naked eye. I also understand that Mr. Teauge can do a simular operation but he bores out the entire internal and adds a very thin stanless tube full length of the barrel.
I suspect this is a verbage problem and excuse me for that but to me sleeved would be the internal method used by Teauge et al.
Thanks for listening in advance.

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:43 am

Bruce,
You've got the mechanical essentials of sleeving right, but not the nomenclature. If the barrels of a gun are damaged, they can be cut off just in front of the chamber, and the remaining breech end used as a monobloc, with new barrel tubes fitted into it. If done correctly, the result is just as good and reliable as a gun that came out of the factory with monoblock barrels. There is nothing weak about sleeved barrels. They are just as good as new as the Proof process indicates. You can see the word 'SLEEVED' stamped on the barrels.
The cosmetic aspects can vary however. A top man in London or Birmingham can produce an absolutely invisible join; but often enough you can see a witness mark. Although George's pics aren't super clear I think you see that the right barrel is showing an annular ring about an inch forward of the barrel flats.
Nigel Teague's process is called 'lining' and is recognised by the Proof House; any work of his will be stamped by them as 'LINED'. Nigel is an ex Rolls Royce aero engineer of some standing. He takes the existing tubes and bores them out for their full length, leaving a very thin wall; obviously a ticklish operation. Steel liners are then inserted and glued into place. I don't know anything about the adhesive side of things, and I think Nigel keeps it under his hat.
Over time there have been some reported failures with lining. What appears to happen is a sort of wrinkling in the internal tube. Nothing nasty or catastrophic, but clearly an issue. AFAIK the process has been discontinued. It's big advantage over sleeving was the retention of the original guns outer appearance and handling qualities. A really nicely figured Damascus barrel set looked and felt just the same, kept it's original profile and could be used with modern ammo. With sleeving you get what you get by the way of profiling unless you are very picky / lucky. Some sleeved guns have an odd 'dead' feel, reflecting the fact that the weight distribution has changed.
Eug

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:26 am

Mr Molloy:
Thank you so much for the reply.
Several years ago I was looking at a rather nice game gun that was listed on line. I did the inspection thing and when the gun arrived and I put it up it felt like 'pusshing a pig.' On closer inspection it was found (by myself and checked by a very good SxS gunsmith) to be sleeved. The barrels were way off in weight and I think taper. I called the folks that had the gun and asked if they knew it had been sleeved and they said it had not. I could see it and some riffiling in the barrel exterior. Damn shame. It was/would have been a great 2.5' 6 lb 3 oz game gun had the work been done more correctly to the origional.
Gun went back...
Again, Thank you...

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:51 pm

Thanks heaps Eugine, you were a great help and I feel more confident, i showed it to another gunshop and they said it would be fine to fire modern day ammo by the look of it and told me that it would have cost a fair amount to have it sleeved professionally and proofed, cant wait for my holidays

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 11:44 am

I found an old nitro hunter shotgun. serial no. 4643 can anyone tell me when it was made?

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:06 pm

Nitro Hunter was a trade name used on shotguns by Belknap Hardware and Iron Company of Louisville, KY.
Nitro Hunter guns were made for Belknap by Crescent Fire Arms Company (1893-1930), W. H. Davenport Fire Arms Company (1890-1909) and Hopkins and Allen Arms company (1898-1916).
Detailed pictures of your shotgun may identify the manufacturer.
There are no factory records available to give and exact date of manufacture.

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:22 pm

NITRO HUNTER shotguns were not made by Belknap Hardware of Louisville,KY. Belknap was or is a large wholesale sporting goods dealer. Nitro Hunter shotguns were made by one of three major gun makers, Crescent Fire Arms Company of Norwich,CT (1892 to1030+),W.H. Davenport Arms Company also located in Norwich,CT (1878 to 1910) and Hopkins & Allen Arms Company also located in Norwich,CT (1868 to 1915). There are serial number-year made tables for Crescent made and Hopkins & Allen made but none that I know of for Davenport. WE )I) will need to know the serial number, type of shotgun (single barrel or double barrel, outside hammer or hammerless) of the gun to determine when it was made. The gun is what I call a 'Trade Brand Name' name shotgun. That is an
inexpensive but well made shotgun made by a major maker for and was sold by a wholesale sporting goods dealer, a retail chain store or an independent seller (your local hardware store who chose the name to go on the gun. If the gun is a single barrel it can be identified by the following: Crescent-the serial number will be located on the bottom tang just behind the trigger guard, Davenport—the barrel will be attached by a screw in hinge pin removable for either side, right or left of the receiver frame. More information available on request.

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 1:06 am

Ladies and Gentlemen
This posting was added to a posting over one year old on a W. W. Greener and had nothing to do with a Nitro Hunter. Please in the future, start a new posting and don't add to one that is so long.

Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 1:07 am

Ladies and Gentlemen
This posting was added to a posting over one year old on a W. W. Greener and had nothing to do with a Nitro Hunter. Please in the future, start a new posting and don't add to one that is so long.